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Re: Follow up on OKD 4

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 8:52 AM Justin Cook <jhcook gmail com> wrote:
On 22 Jul 2019, 00:07 +0100, Gleidson Nascimento , wrote:
I'm with Daniel, I believe it is easier to attract help by using Slack instead of IRC. 

My experience over many years — especially with OCP3 — IRC with public logs smashes Slack. It’s not comparable. The proof is in the pudding. Compare the public IRC logs with the Slack channel. 

The way I see it is we should practice openness in everything. Slack is proprietary. Google does not index the logs. That’s a full stop for me. As a matter of fact, many others agree. Just search it. The most disappointing thing is for over two decades open IRC has been used with open mailing lists and open documentation with a new trend of using fancy (arguably not) things that own the data we produce and we have to pay them to index it for us and in the end it’s not publicly available — see a theme emerging?

So go ahead and have your Slack with three threads per week and we’ll see if your belief stays the same. The wide open searchable public IRC is the heavyweight champion that’s never let us down. As a matter of fact, being completely open helped build OCP3 and we all know how that worked out. 

Justin - let me provide some info from my side, i'm not trying to get into a personal religious debate here however i think we need to acknowledge few things:

you saying:

  • IRC with public logs smashes Slack
  • Slack is proprietary. Google does not index the logs.
My response:

I totally agree with that but let's do a quick reality check taking example some IRC channels, shall we?

  • ansible IRC channel doesn't log the conversation - does the comments [1] and [2] resonate with you? It does for me and that is a huge -1 from my side.
  • centos-devel/ centos channels doesn't log the conversation. Saying that for the centos meetings (i.e PaaS SIG) it get logged and is per SIG. That in itself is very useful however as a guy who was consuming the output for the last year as PaaS SIG chair/ member i will say is not appealing to go over the output if a meeting had high traffic (same way if you have a 6 hour meeting recording, will you watch it from A to Z ? ;) )
  • fedora-coreos it does log [3] but if i'll turn every morning and see what has been discussed you see a lot of noise caused by who join/leave
  • openshift/ openshift-dev channels had something on [4] but does it still works ?

All i'm trying to say with the above is:

Should we go with IRC as a form of communication we should then be ready to have bodies lined up to:

  • look after and admin the IRC channels.
  • enable the IRC log channels and also filter out the noise to be consumable (not just stream the logs somewhere and tick the box)
In addition to the channel logs, my main requirement is to access the IRC channels from any device and not lose track of what has been discussed.
A respected gentlemen involved in various opensource projects once wrote [5] and so with that i'd say:
  • who will take on board the setup so everyone can benefit from it?

If you swing to slack, i'd say:
  • K8s slack is free in that neither you nor i/ others pay for it and everyone can join there
  • OpenShift Common slack channel is also free, RH is paying the bill (another investment from their side) however as said Diane setup up that place initially with a different scope.
  • once you logged in you can scroll back many months in the past
  • you get ability to share code snippet -> in IRC you don't. You could argue that folks can use github gist or any pastebin service however the content can be deleted/ expired and so we go back to square one

[1] https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/242#issuecomment-334239958
[2] https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/242#issuecomment-336890994
[3] https://echelog.com/logs/browse/fedora-coreos/1563746400
[4] https://botbot.me/freenode/openshift-dev/
[5] https://doughellmann.com/blog/2015/03/12/deploying-nested-znc-services-with-ansible/

you also saying
  • Slack with three threads per week
How is the traffic on fedora-coreos OR centos-devel channels going? Have you seen high volume ?

I think is unfair to say that, in reality even on the mentioned IRC channels we don't see much traffic.  #ansible is an exception but that is because ansible core (no idea how many are RH employees vs the rest) devs do hang around there.

At the end i think we need to take a step back and ask ourselves:
  • who is involved in OKD?
    • who is contributing - with tests, integration, docs, logistics etc etc (if i can use an analogy - help producing the wine)
    • who is consuming it (the analogy - consuming/ drinking the wine)
  • what is the scope of OKD based on the resources available ?
    • does OKD afford/ have capacity for an Infra team to look after tools? any volunteers? :)
    • is OKD community only on the consuming fence providing a bit of feedback to RH?
  • where are the RH OpenShift devs hanging around? is OKD something which does appeal them and if so what is their main comms tool for OCP v4?
    • the entry barrier should be as friction-less as possible otherwise no OpenShift developer will be active on slack and on IRC unless they are dedicated for community project.
  • where is the place from where OKD community can recruit/ encourage / welcome / attract new folks to help out?
    • is it IRC or is it Slack?
    • is it dev mailer or is it something else?
    • is the entry bar too high for folks to stay around and help ?

Being truly transparent and following my PaaS SIG experience:
  • when i took the baton to keep releasing the openshift-ansible/ origin rpms on CentOS repos we had 6+ folks, after 4 weeks we ended up with 3 guys hanging around.
  • when we released 3.11 i've kept everyone up to date and informed, even asked for help with testing out the new rpms - silence, nobody showed on PaaS SIG meetings nor jumped on improving the CI but then on Github issues appeared - consuming vs contributing ;)

Note, i'm not saying all the above to take any credit (no need for that honestly!) just because i care, hence a serious assessment is needed to see what we have followed by a laser commitment to get OKD v4 out. Yes RH needs to drive because a) they will benefit from it IF there is a real community behind with useful feedback loop; b) in v4 the skill set required is no longer around ansible - is the MCO/ operating system; c) all the knowledge/ design docs created over the last 1y+  is on their side of the fence .. and through Clayton's voice they said they are doing .. but they are calling for help.

They key question is:

how many companies are willing to throw resources  OKD community ? time will tell ....


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